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[edit] Lore from the Tome of Knowledge

I would like to see the unlocked lore from the Tome of Knowledge up on the page on the side of user written lore. I know that Lore is Lore, but it would be nice to read it as it was intended by Mythic for those who don't want to scurry the game for hours to find a lore unlock- like me. I know that it means copying the text from the game word for word and how that looks being that this is a wiki, but I still think it would be a nice addition. We could make it an italic text and/or frame it inside a background so it very clear that its a "quote" from the real Tome of Knowledge. So what you could do then is making a subcategory of the Tome of Knowledge article called History and Lore (just like the game) and then have three more subcategories for Empire vs. Chaos, Greenskin vs. Dwarf, Dark Elves vs. High Elves (just like in the game), so its the same structure as the real Tome of Knowledge. And for people to not get confused to whats what (though that the layout and such i think would speak for itself pretty clearly) you could have like a reminder on top like when you are reading for instance the Tome of Knowledge lore entry about The Apex it says "Looking for the user written entry about The Apex?" I know that this probably is a pretty wild idea and with all the stuff needing to get up now at launch this is probably not the most important, in fact this is far from that. But I just wanted to put the idea out there. - Azade91 15:24, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

It's a nice thought, especially for those who never come across that certain piece of lore ingame. Question of course is how free is the community to rip the entire lore from the game like that, might be some copyright issues at hand there preventing that from happening.Psycho dude 18:11, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
A nice idea, but I doubt anyone will be willing to do that much work in a long long time as there are other, more important parts of this wiki that needs the effort.. Besides, if you want to know more about Warhammer lore this wiki itself is an excellent source, and you can feel free to ask lore questions on my talk page, as I have an extensive knowledge of the lore.. and god damn I feel like I'm bragging right now :( -Rovdyr 18:57, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I'd much rather see anything that can be viewed in the game at any time paraphrased when possible. So far, the only text I can think of that should be preserved word for word is possibly quest descriptions; once a quest is complete, the information leaves the Tome, and there's no way to pull it up again. Similarly, I would think the same thing holds true of any other text that can only be viewed at specific times within the game. Of course, if the majority would prefer to quote directly from the game in all instances, I'm fine with that, too. -- Heaven's Agent 19:11, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I believe, and I'm speaking as a story purest here, part of the magic in the storyline is playing through the parts yourself and then reading about them. Writing them down would ruin an experience, and I suggest you try running around and doing the chapters to unlock your favorite storylines. I know I am gonna try to bust all the chapters in my dwarven lore and then spend hours reading it. Cilero 19:20, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Something else to consider. While on a Core server it's a small matter to travel to a prior zone and unlock missed Tome entries, doing so on an Open server could pose a bit of a challenge. In addition, there will be some entries, such as Lair descriptions, that will be pose increased difficulty for a Open server player to access due to the way the chicken mechanic functions on those servers. -- Heaven's Agent 20:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Some good points here. I've used some of the wording from the Tome in a few bestiary articles, where there wasn't anything decent there before, but I haven't distinguished it as being text found in the Tome. I think this could work, if handled properly. As we've discussed on other pages, keeping spoilers out of the wiki isn't an excercise in futility, so we might as well be as inclusive as we can be. Then again, the Tome is a major part of the appeal of the game, so we don't want to infringe on people's enjoyment of unlocking those Tome articles - take them out of context and they definitely lose some of their value. Overall, I'm leaning towards keeping Tome text off the wiki, but I can definitely see how it could be useful to have in a lot of articles - quests, for example. - Pendrako talk 01:00, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
All ready having told opinion by starting this discussion I would like to move it forward, cause there some great ideas happening here :). If we look more on the quoting and importing from the Tome itself, and less on the lore side then I have few more questions I like to bring up. The first is illustrations. As we all know there's some beautiful illustrations on the bestiary entries, should we import these into the Wiki? Secondly there's the notable persons unlocks, I have noticed that these are not lore about the persons but more quotes from them or from other notable persons quoting about them and in that way expressing lore, should we import these into the articles about the specific targets? Because the quotes themselves are a powerful tool we could use on articles having a connection to that quote, like for say on the Chosen article we could have (as we all ready have, though I'm not sure its from the Tome) a quote from a notable chosen taken from the Tome. Azade91 08:33, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Edit: I took the liberty to add a notable persons quote from the Tome about Engra Deathsword, I felt that it really fitted there and as a lore newbie I also felt that with the quote there it enchanted the perspective I got out of article to a better point. To put it simple thanks to quote I now see Engra as more then a big high-tiered guy standing in The Inevitable City, so I think the contribution of the quotes can really become handy.

[edit] TOK Template

As this is more about the template than this article itself, I added an update (on this) to the Template:TOK talk page. ¬_¬ Cinister (talk|contribs|files) 20:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
As this discussion has been moved for over 2 weeks, I have /Archived what was here. ♣ WTarrasque ( T | C | F ) 05:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] ToK Organization / Structure suggestion - please post opinions - its a biggie!

Not linking pages but using single brackets for ease of viewing. [Suggested Page] Current/Real Page type formatting.

Page: [Tome of Knowledge] has links (with images from in game ToK tabs) for each section.

  • Page: [Introduction] - instead of matching what ToK in game, has info from current Tome of Knowledge - totally my opinion on this part - perhaps that info should still be on main suggested Page: [Tome of Knowledge]
  • Page: [Quests] - The ToK in game does not save info on quests, so I suggest breaking it into army (dest/order) and teir, then zone. Has links to pages in bullets below. I prefer to break it into army - with quests that are able to be completed by both simply linked to from both army's quest pages. Opinions please.
    • Page: [Order Quests] - Has links to pages in bullets below.
      • Page: [Dwarf Quests] - Has links to only quests involved in dwarven lands.
        • Dwarf Tier 1 (Title on [Order Quests] & [Dwarf Quests] only - not an actual page)
          • Page: [Order Ekrund Quests] - linked listing to all quests started in area. linked listing to all quests ended in area. linked list to all quests with objectives in area.
          • Page: [Order Mount Bloodhorn Quests] - same linked listings.
        • Dwarf Tier 2 (Title on [Order Quests] & [Dwarf Quests] only - not an actual page)
          • Same as above but with proper zone info
        • Include all Order Tiers with zone links
    • Page: [Destruction Quests ] - same formatting as order above. - has links to all zones, once you click zone, it will have actual quests. Opinions Please!
  • Page: [WAR Story] - I'd like it to follow ToK quite closely
    • Page: [Order WAR Story] - Has links to all chapters (including warcamps) for all 3 order races.
      • Page: [Dwarf WAR Story] - Has links to only Dwarf chapters
        • Page: [Naming style yet to be determined] Dwarf Chapter 1: (sorry, can't remember name of it offhand)
          • Page: [Naming style yet to be determined] Dwarf Ch1 PQ Name - this portion will NOT be shown on main war story page, only starting from Page: [Dwarf WAR Story] and [chapter pages].
      • Page: [Empire WAR Story] - same convention as above, and with [High Elf WAR Story]
    • Page: [Destruction WAR Story] - same convention as order. Opinions Please!
  • Page: [Achievements] - is it too much to have all pages in this section linked on this main page?
    • Page: [Bestiary Achievements] (I'd like to see a drop down menu with all unlocks for all 4 categories)
      • Page: [Surviving Achievements] (Page should contain 9 unlocks)
      • same with the other 3 categories under Bestiary
    • Page: [Career Achievements] (Same with dropdown for all 10 Categories)
      • Page: [Accruing Achievements] (Page should contain 16 unlocks)
      • same with the other 9 categories under Career
    • Page: [Casual Achievements] (Same with dropdown 5 Categories)
      • Page: [Social Achievements] (Should contain 9 unlocks)
    • Page: [Cities Achievements] (4 categories)
      • Page: [Visitation Achievements] (5 unlocks)
    • Page: [Exploration Achievements] (26 Categories)
      • Page: [Cold One Hunters] (1 unlock)
      • Page: [Lairs in High & Dark Elven Lands] (4 unlocks - I think each should be on expandable box?)
    • Page: [Guilds] (3 Categories)
      • Page: all ???s for me =(
    • Page: [Persuits Achievements] (28 Categories)
      • Page: [Sign of Change] (1 unlock)
    • Page: [Realm vs Realm Achievements] (6 Categories)
      • Page: [Infamy Achievements] (5 unlocks)
    • Page: [Tradeskills Achievements] (7 Categories)
      • Page: [Creating Achievements] (10 unlocks)
  • Page: [Rewards] I would still like to keep Title for ease of use, but also have the in game way here
    • Page: [Titles Rewards]
      • Page: [Achievement Titles] - no idea how many titles there are, but they should be listed here in order that it is in game I think.
      • Page: [Exclusives Titles]
      • Page: [Exploration Titles]
      • Page: [Heroic Titles]
      • Page: [Killing Titles]
      • Page: [Questing Titles]
      • Page: [Silly Titles]
    • Page: [Tactics Rewards]
      • No unlocks here, so unsure =(
    • Page: [Items Rewards]
      • No unlocks here...
    • Page: [Cards Rewards]
      • No unlocks yet...
  • Page: [History & Lore] this is going well so far I believe, and Im getting quite sick of typing...

Instead of typing everything out thats plainly written in ToK in game, does this look like a logical overall Tome of Knowledge navigation tree? Silenas-n-Jynnx 21:23, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I would prefer [Dwarf Storyline] over [Dwarf WAR Story] for tome consistency. For some of the pages, maybe it should be a category structure, which means you don't need to make lists over everything, but only put the articles in the right category. I'm not sure how it works with categories, but something like [Category:Order Quests/Zone] (or [Category:Order Quests/Starts in Zone]) would make a good list of Order quests in each zone, I don't know if there's any race-specific quests actually, if there is none, I think the quests should be sorted only by zone and realm, not by race. I think that the structure we have for achievements now works perfectly fine, no need to restructure there, just a need to fill up the list. ( [Achievements] > [Achievements (Type)] > [Achievements (Type: Name)])
The sorting of the titles in the ToK are a bloody mess (unless I just haven't got how it really works), most titles are under Achievements, but I think they should be sorted alphabetically, since they don't seem to have an intelligent structure at the moment (it takes like forever to find the right title that you just unlocked when you have more than 50-60 titles)
The Items rewards are a list of unlocked items which contains an icon for the item and a link to the achievement, I believe that the tactics looks the same (I think I've seen some screenshot on it) ∞ Sunspots {Talk | Contribs} 22:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I've been working with quests a lot in the last few weeks, and it's made me realize something: there's a reason they don't stay in the ToK. The Tome would be too massive, and I think the same holds true in this situation.
I actually think we would be better off not having a Quests tab in our ToK structure, and instead have them linked to the zone articles themselves. This is how I've structured The Blighted Isle/Order quests, as a subpage of the primary article. It mirrors the system used on WoWWiki, as quests are basically designed the same in both games with regard to thier function, and I think it's the best route for us to use here. -- Heaven's Agent 01:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Though, there's no reason the articles like The Blighted Isle/Order quests couldn't be linked into a table structure, if there is a desire to have something in place for the ToK. -- Heaven's Agent 03:09, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
How about we still keep the Quest Page for lore purposes, and just have it link to the zones (which have quests?)Silenas-n-Jynnx 15:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Using the ToK structure as an index for the quest pages? That would probably work, and keep the page size down to a managable level. -- Heaven's Agent 17:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Hmm I like the idea for this... if you need or want any help with the "coding" part of it and/or want any templates written up.. lemmie know I'll see what I can whip up. ¬_¬ Cinister (talk|contribs|files)


Indent reset. I'd like more opinions before I start getting going - but it's been a while now... what should I do?Silenas-n-Jynnx 16:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

From what I see, it looks pretty clean and straightforward; I generally like it. That said, I think we should avoid using articles simply as part of an organizational structure. If we can provide enough content on each page for it to serve as an article first and foremost, we should have the article as part of the wiki. But if an article is basically nothing more than links to other wiki pages, I feel we should cut it from the structure.
Introduction: I'm of a mind that [[Introduction]] should be excluded entirely. The only purpose it serves in game is a summary of achievements, and is simply unneeded here. I believe the information should remain on Tome of Knowledge, as it is now.
Quests: The more I think about it, the more I like the thought of an outline of quest articles. I'm wondering if we can get away with a single page for this entry, not only serving as our general article on quests in the game, but also linking to the various lists that will eventually be developed, such as The Blighted Isle/Order quests.
WAR Story: I prefer [[Dwarf Storyline]] and the like as well. It doesn't make sense to me not to use the ToK terminology in this instance. Also, I don't think we'd need to divide the articles into Order and Destruction sections in this case. There's only six storylines; if someone can't figure out which are Order and which are Destruction, or simply pick the one from the list they want to look at, they probably aren't going to be able to navigate to HammerWiki in the first place.
Achievements: I have to disagree with Sunspots on the naming of these articles. Our current naming structure for Achievements are unnecessarily complex and convoluted. What is described here simplifies things admirably, and does a good job of eliminating excess colons and parentheses. That said, if there's a majority of people that feel we could benefit from additional structure in this area I propose the following modification:
  • Page: [[Achievements]]
    • Page: [[Achievements/Bestiary]]
      • Page: [[Surviving]] or [[Surviving Achievements]]
Rewards: Again, I like the structure, but could see this as another good opportunity to make use of limited sub-pages. In addition, as Sunspots noted the existing article Titles is a mess. I could see restructuring it, rather than creating a new page [[Titles Rewards]].
History & Lore: I would agree that this section is good to go as is.
Noteworthy Persons: We could probably structure this in the same manner as History & Lore.
Bestiary: Again, pretty much complete. We still need to re-write a number of articles and apply some better organization to those that fall under this category, but I believe the basic structure is sound and not in need of changing.
Armory: I think a simple structure is called for here:
  • Page: [[Armory]]
    • Page: [[Decimator Armor]]
    • Page: [[Tracker Armor]]
    • Page: etc ...
I think that about does it for me; you did say you wanted more opinions. ;D -- Heaven's Agent 04:58, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
We're closing in on something here, then there's just the issue about the articles going under [[Dwarf Storyline]], there's some discussion about it in talk:Chapter
Forgot the tildes, previous comment is mine ∞ Sunspots {Talk | Contribs} 22:48, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
I like the structure. I like the idea. I'd say go for it.
I really want to get categorizing on all the unlocks labeled Tome Unlocks. I like the way Category:The Blighted Isle has been sorted for the most part, but I'd really like to categorize every tome unlock differently. This is probably because browse by categorize as often as articles. I was trying to discuss the categorization, rather than the article structure, under Category Talk:The Blighted Isle. ♣ WTarrasque ( T | C | F ) 04:56, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Archiving

I suggest we start archiving parts of this page as necessary. I archived a post made by myself that is past expiration. ♣ WTarrasque ( T | C | F ) 05:01, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

My sig wrapped :-( and Template:Nowrap isn't made yet. Should we? ♣ WTarrasque ( T | C | F ) 05:07, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
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