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[edit] Warcamps, structure and naming

I'm thinking about reorganising the templates, changing them from lists of chapters into lists including the whole storyline, the storyline contains chapters and Warcamps, the chapters are structured as in WARDB, it would make it easier to have it all in the same navigation bar.

For this Chapter page, it can be stripped down to explaining what chapters are in general and how they work and give a link to Storyline which I'll fill with tables of the storylines, and an overview of the Storyline concept. Does anyone have anything to say about it, if there's a better idea of structuring it, it's good to use it from the beginning instead of needing to rewrite everything article.

Chapter articles need to have uniform naming, so far I have made one chapter article, although there is two chaos chapters with the same name (Proving Ground), maybe we should name them Chaos Chapterel 1: Proving Ground or maybe Chapter 1: Proving Ground or Proving Ground (Chaos chapter 1) I sincerely don't know. All thoughts and help is welcome.∞ Sunspots {Talk | Contribs} 22:35, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I like where you're heading with this. I think the Chapter page should just (as you've already said) be an explanation of what a chapter is. I would suggest that we use the term "War Story" instead of storyline, since that more closely aligns itself with the Tome of Knowledge.
For Chapter naming, I prefer the first Chaos Chapter 1: Proving Ground example that you gave, it just looks and flows better to me. DamienVryce 23:23, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the renaming, with one exception. When naming articles, there's two things to consider - accuracy and accessability. Some of the names that Sunspots suggested are accurate, but how many people are going to realise we name our chapters that. We need to use what wil be most commonly used when people are typing searches into our search bars or all the accuracy will go unnoticed. The other alternative is having loads of diambiguation pages, which is really more hassle that it's worth. I prefer just having two articles: Proving Grounds and [[Proving Grounds {chapter)]] - which makes it easier to link to as well. ~ Revoran | talk 02:18, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Not sure I follow your thoughts. Are you assuming that people are going to try and type in the EXACT URL of the page article? I would imagine people linking to the Chaos Chapter 1: Proving Ground article from a higher level article which almost makes the article naming convention moot. My main concern over standardizing on the Proving Grounds format would be conflict with similarly named quests. DamienVryce 19:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
OK, I re-read your original argument and understand it better, though wouldn't a search for "Proving Ground" OR a search for "Chaos Chapter 1" both produce results if the article is called Chaos Chapter 1: Proving Ground? DamienVryce 19:56, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you Revo, keeping the names of chapters to what the actual chapter name is, meanwhile, when the player haven't unlocked a chapter, he don't know the actual name of the chapter (let's say I am on chaos chapter two and just want to search for chapter 3 so I know where to find it). I have also got one problem with naming one Proving Ground and one Proving Ground (chapter), since both are chapters. Damien is by the way right with the naming of War Story and not Storyline∞ Sunspots {Talk | Contribs} 14:26, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
If we're in "spoiler prevention mode" with the convention, that makes more sense to me. I just didn't understand why Revoran thinks Chaos Chapter 1: Proving Ground will be less accessible, it's certainly not less accurate (those being his two concerns.) DamienVryce 19:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tome of Knowledge

I came to this wiki because I found some good websites, but NONE of them had a section for the Tome of Knowledge. The Tome of Knowlege has many chapters. The chapters I think should be available for people to get info on are:

  • *Quests* *WAR Story* *Achievements* *Rewards* *History & Lore* *Noteworthy Persons* *Bestiary* *Armory*

Which is how the tome of knowlege appears in Warhammer. (Not including the introduction tab) I know there's a guy working on History & Lore now, which is super cool.

My final goal is for this website to have how & where & why to unlock every single entry in the tome of knowledge. And I think that wiki is only way for that to really happen - people see the outline, they fill in whats missing.

Now please check out WAR Story (same name as in tome of knowledge) The only one Ive done so far is Dark Elf WAR Story. If you want, you can feel free to edit those pages so long as it makes it better. I wont be offended, I'd be happy its a better page. If you want to do template list for chapters, I dont know how to do that. I know C++ and HTML but not familiar with wiki coding. I will be more than happy to work with you in this.

If you want me to start using templates, please show me where I can make a template type.

I want the template to include:

  • *Rally Master* *Area, Zone (as stated in tome o knowledge in game)* *Total influence* *rewards (based on career)* *PQs (with one line stage objectives)* *Story (off of tome - at very end so that if they dont want the story, they dont even have to see the thing)*

Now, I'm trying to get war story chapters done from prologue to chapter 4 (including warcamp) for destruction and order. Hopefully I can finish that today. And that includes all influence rewards for each race...

So - what is your take on the tome of knowledge approach? I really want to add content =) Silenas-n-Jynnx 17:24, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

If you look at the structure of Proving Ground, there is two templates, one that is the infobox template:Chapter and one that is the storyline quick navigation template:ChaosChaptersNav, I am working on the other navigation templates to be for the full storyline and not just chapters (Template:EmpireChaptersNav, Template:DwarfChaptersNav, Template:HighElfChaptersNav, Template:GreenskinChaptersNav and Template:DarkElfChaptersNav), name the articles with only the actual name for now (Proving Ground and not Chaos Chapter 1 - Proving Ground) ∞ Sunspots {Talk | Contribs} 17:43, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
EDIT found out answer to problem. Fixes my idea with categories, and your and rev's idea with search problem. #REDIRECT!!!!!!!!!!!!! go to chapter and click on your dark elf (chapter) link - it goes straight to my full named thingy... so now if they search for Trial By Blood it will get redirected to Dark Elf Chapter 1 - Trial by Blood - also will make Dark Elf Chapter 1 redirect to same page!! how's that for a solution!?!?! Also, you can make a page called Chapters and in text to #REDIRECTchapter so that they still get to go to chapter page if they use plural!! neato!!!
First: category, I would put, let's say the High Elf chapter 1 article, in Category:High Elf Storyline, and then I would put Category:High Elf Storyline as a sub-category of Category:War Story.
Second: The influence looks good, but you can use regular wiki-lists, see wikipedia:Help:List.
Third: The reason why I would like the chapters to be named with only their names is in the discussion over this one.
Fourth: My templates can be changed, yes, if we settle on one way to name the articles.
Fifth: Changing the caption of a link in the wiki is pretty easy, [[Dwarf|Hairy dudes]] turns into Hairy dudes. to change an external link, this is the way: [http://www.google.com/ google!] which turns into google!
Sixth: DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT remove or rearrange on a talkpage, at least try not do do it, since if someone is actually trying to answer your questions, it will make it all dizzy in that persons head, and we don't like my dizzy head!
∞ Sunspots {Talk | Contribs} 18:28, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
No. Creating loads and loads of redirecting pages is not really a solution to our structure issue. Would you like to explain exactly why you have to insist on naming the chapters your way? ∞ Sunspots {Talk | Contribs} 18:31, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


ok, thanks for the ruling - guessing nothing I have to say will make a difference —The preceding unsigned comment was made by Silenas-n-Jynnx‎ (contribs) . (edited, see below ~ Revoran | talk 13:24, 27 September 2008 (UTC))
That is not the case, but since we have an ongoing discussion about how we are going to structure the articles, making articles the one way or the other right now might not be the best decision, I know that I exaggerated a bit with bold text and all, which I am sorry for, I want to keep this discussion on a mature and civilized level. I do not in any way want to repel a willing contributor, we do all put hours of work and effort into this, but some times talk is needed before action. ∞ Sunspots {Talk | Contribs} 20:13, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

(Resetting Indent)In regard to the idea of multiple redirects, I think it's a poor solution. If we name our articles as we should, it should not be of an issue. In addition, I'm of a belief that redirects should be reserved for situational extremes; not only would adding them as you mentioned artificially boost our page count, Silenas, but it would severely limit article titles that we could use in the future. I just don't feel it's a solution, that modifying the text of a wiki link, as Sunspots demonstrated above, is the way to go.

Something else that needs considered is whether we should be adding the chapter text word for word or not. This topic was discussed to some extent in Talk:Tome of Knowledge, and I believe the consensus we came to was to only paraphrase or summarize in most cases. That said, there's no reason we can't revisit the topic, if someone feels it's necessary. -- Heaven's Agent 21:15, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Influence Rewards & Template:Chapter

ok - how's about Template:Chapter changes Influence basic advanced elite xyz stuff to Total Influence (how much it takes to cap chapter) Basic Rewards (Choose 1) (those are not class specific) and then a little bar over story that has links to rewards for each career?

And what do you think about PQ Bag Loot? Should that be attached to the individual PQs per career? Or should we have the info on the PQ Bags for each stage on the page that has the influence rewards?

Keep in mind chapters are done mostly to get the loot. I'd like to make the rewards to be easily accessable. Silenas-n-Jynnx 18:04, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

The x y and z are placeholders for the amount of influence, since I don't have those numbers at this time, Elite is always the influence cap. Information about the PQs should be kept in their respective articles. ∞ Sunspots {Talk | Contribs} 18:33, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, apparently you dont want me doing anything and you are the all commanding voice of the other contributers, so good luck. Might I mention that there was NO information earlier. Ive been trying to add info. But, since, apparently I'm doing it ALLLL WRONG and it HAS to be your way and you wont explain why - you do it. Have fun typing the story lines, getting the specific amounts of things to kill for the PQ stages, and the influence rewards done. Im sure I would have done it wrong anyway. )P.S. If anyone is wondering what this is in response to, please see my talk page where he told me to keep the conversation here... ?
No, this is not the case, but I get frustrated when you are unable to compromise and discuss a matter, I am not saying that things should be done my way, what I am saying is that you going on and on without us coming to a conclusion on a matter, I do really appreciate that you are contributing, I do, but when one or more contributors have different opinions the solution is not to ignore the other contributors questions and statements. ∞ Sunspots {Talk | Contribs} 19:58, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I thought the redirect thing was a great idea - Ive seen wow and ffxi wiki's have that happen a lot -- but no, it wont work because you say no. If you said no sooner, I wouldn't have done any. Goodbye, and good luck, and good riddance. Silenas-n-Jynnx 20:05, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
You are starting to get childish, no offence, but please try to be a reasonable young woman and see my side of the matter instead of acting like a stubborn bitch (excuse the language)∞ Sunspots {Talk | Contribs} 20:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

(reset indent) - Silenas: Stop acting as if people are trying to insult you - they're not. They're discussing a page. If you're going to get insulted any time someone disagrees with you (even if they are less than tactful) then you won't be able to edit productively on this wiki. Sunspots: Do not say "no offence" when you clearly meant offence. I understand that you are frustrated, but you simply cannot act this way. I've edited out some of the more unproductive things. That being said, I don't like Silenas' way of naming chapters. It's more accurate yes, but there is a reason the Karl Franz article isn't called Karl Franz I, Holswig-Shleistein, Grand Prince of Altdorf, Elector Count of Reikland and Emperor of Sigmar's glorious Empire. ~ Revoran | talk 13:24, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

See User talk: Silenas-n-Jynnx for a more thorough ... explanation. ~ Revoran | talk 13:27, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't want to open a can of worms, but I feel a bit misrepresented in the above statment. I would like to say that I was insulted personally on my talk page... (has been mostly removed now) Please do not make me look like I am imagining things - overreacting to them is bad enough as it is =P Silenas-n-Jynnx 06:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I'd like to try again

Thanks to Heaven's Agent, who said some encouraging things on my talk page, I'd like to make a proposal. This is NOT just about chapters, but Im not sure where else this would be noticed. If I get logical responses from more than one person on each of these topics, I will gladly start contributing in the way deemed best.

A ) Tome of Knowledge - is this a reasonable goal?

1 ) Basic Organization - I would like to have a page for each tab in the tome of knowledge, named what the tab in the tome of knowledge is named. This is because if someone wants to find out how to unlock something, or the benefits from that unlock, etc. they would be able to easily find it. For instance, did you know that talking to any Uthorian Sorceress in Dark Elf Prologue unlocks the title "The Bounty Hunter" which is under Bestiary - Humans - Rogue. I think someone should be able to search the title page and find it, or be able to go to bestiarty page, nagivage to humans, navigate to rogue, and see all of the unlocks available (which would include that title). If this wiki had a fully navigational tome of knowledge with every unlock, and how to get it, and why - then this website would stand alone in completeness. That is why I wanted to start working with this wiki.
Respond Please!


2 ) It would be really cool to also have a button on the left called "Tome of Knowledge" which has the > with each section available to easily see. This would have to be when more content is added, of course.
Respond Please!


3 ) History & Lore is already in construction - that is a HUGE portion of the tome of knowlege. I'd love to get input from WTarrasque who has done a ton of work in this section! I think it would be great if each section of the tome of knowledge had a similar formatting theme.
Respond Please!


B ) WAR Story - what's important?

1 ) That is the name of the tab in the Tome of Knowledge. I'd like to talk to Sunspots about re-doing my page to match the chapter page theme. Is it OK to have the tome of knowlege naming convention and have a page named 'WAR Story' that contains all info on chapters for each race?
Respond Please!


2) Sunspots has got a nice looking format going, but there are a few things I'm uncomforable with:
a ) Army names. He uses the cool sounding names like 'Raven Host' instead of the commonly used 'Dark Elf'. Dark Elf is more intuitive than Raven Host in my opinion.
Respond Please!


b ) Chapter names. What got us all in a snitch last week. After this post I will not speak on the subject further(unless responding to a question or a new viewpoint I hadn't thought of). I simply don't think people are going to search for the names of the various chapters. I think they will search for the race and chapter number. I do agree that my original thinking of having race, chapter & title is a bit much. Example: 'Bonerenderer's Boyz' I think should be named 'Greenskin Chapter 6' because thats far more intuitive in my opinion. And I don't know much about wiki's but it seems that making a redirect per chapter won't be good for the site. (I know 2 people have already stated that they prefer the title, but I'm hoping that my opinion might change their minds. If that does not happen, please provide a reason why title will be more likely searched for than race and chapter number)
Respond Please!


c ) Influence Rewards. The main reason why people will be looking at these pages in the first place. Currently the template for chapters does not have a section for career based influence rewards (just the amount needed to unlock the reward). What I would like to see is a link for each career's particular rewards for that chapter.
Respond Please!
-- Side note: This would involve creating item pages - have not seen any yet. I asked Revoran, and he seemed to think it would be OK to have an image of the icon (and perhaps what it looks like worn), and have written stats.
Respond Please!


d ) Public Quests. The current chapter template only has a small section in the header box. I think there should be a listing of each PQ in the chapter (linked to that PQ's page) with a bulleted list of stages for each, and an approximate location. (a larger section of the page than inside the header box). Also regarding PQs - I think that it would be nice to be able to see what loot a career can get from the loot bags that completing the PQ gives. I think I may have mentionied this before, and someone said keep items with items - but if I wanted to know what I could get from a massive bag from a particular PQ, I'd think to look for that PQ to find what loot I can get from it's particular PQ bags.
Respond Please!

I believe that it will be fruitless for me to contribute information until these organizational details are nailed out. I'm hoping for honest logical responses, so thank you in advance for doing so. Silenas-n-Jynnx 06:23, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

A.1) A page for each tab is indeed the best option, something cool could be if we came up with a structure so that you could easily navigate through the whole ToK without the need to search for anything, right from any page about the ToK (having a Tome of Knowledge entry in the sidebar is a must when we have the basic pages, but having a smart navigational system through templates can be considered for more customizability for our needs).
A.2) This can be done pretty easily by changing an article that I don't know the name of, but I've seen it some time in the recent changes list.
A.3) This is indeed one of the best parts that have been added to the wiki lately, we could possibly use a similar naming system, Proving Ground/Chaos Storyline (this will give the reader an automatic link back to Chaos Storyline (such as Ostland/History & Lore), then if we should name it Chapter 1/Chaos Storyline or something similar it would work just as well, as long as we come up with something consistent.
B.1) Let's try put up the structure as visually as possible (since we don't have the same visual approach, we're a Wiki, not a ToK after all), right from the ToK:
Tab:WAR Story
First page: A list of four categories:
Capital Cities
Chaos Storyline/Empire Storyline
Dark Elf Storyline/High Elf Storyline
And under that, a short description of the currently active category.
Then on the second page is where the messy starts.
Prologue:
[[Prologue Name]~]
Chapter 1:
Chapter name
and so on (it also includes influence meters, but that is to show personal progression)
When into the chapter's description, the CHAPTER 1 header seems to be a bit more central part than the actual chapter name
The map doesn't say anything about chapter names.
So, to be consistent with the tome, something like Chapter 1: Proving Ground/Chaos Storyline could be used, then using a colon might be wrong since on the wiki, that is a way to define a namespace (now the answers were pretty intertwined(right word?), but I hope it doesn't matter :))
B.2) The reason why I've used Raven Host is because that is the way we have always been using it, I think it is mostly to be right lore-wise.
So - should we be right lore-wise or more bland/obvious? Silenas-n-Jynnx 17:05, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
D) (hope I didn't forget something by jumping to D) In the infobox I believe that we can have simple links to the PQ's(or none at all), then have a list/table in the actual article with PQ's and basic stages.
Putting info about loot bags should be kept to their respective PQ article, there might just be the problem that there's a truckload of items, and if someone was looking into that they probably will go to a database webpage (such as WARDB). ∞ Sunspots {Talk | Contribs} 15:04, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Sorry if I was unclear - I wanted the PQ Pages to have links to career's bag loot (not the chapter page) - that sound good?Silenas-n-Jynnx 17:05, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I just realized, since warcamps doesn't have numbering (and I don't fancy adding numbering), only having Warcamp/Chaos Storyline woudn't work. ∞ Sunspots {Talk | Contribs} 15:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Just a note, the "buttons on the left" thing I could easily add if you guys like - contact me on my talk if you reach a consensus etc. The page you were thinking of, Sunspots, was MediaWiki:Monaco-sidebar. ~ Revoran | talk 15:26, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


Thanks Sunspots!! I appreciate your well thought out response!!

Regarding naming warcamps, we could use numbers like chaos warcamp 1 - but I dont think thats so good, because, for example, greenskin tier 2 has 2 warcamps, where the other destruction only has 1... But, there's only 1 warcamp per side per zone. So, greenskin tier 2 has Barak Varr Warcamp and Marshes of Madness Warcamp. But, dwarves have a warcamp in each of those areas so that's not so good either.... Also as warcamps don't have influence/influence rewards. They do have objectives and forts(forts might be considerered public quests too because when the fort is won you get to roll for bag, etc.) So we might want a slightly different template for those. And perhaps instead of rally master, we have flight master?

But I love the idea for having the tome link to the war story - from there destruction or order (or have column/section for each) and the 6 races, and order capitals and destruction capitals. & then from there have the listing like you'd see in the tome of knowlege in game (with chapter # and name, possibly total influence needed?) and there click the chapter you want.

Easy Navigation. I think I've seen on wiki's where if you'd click race, then click chaos, then click zealot, on top of the screen you'd have 'area links' and see race - chaos at the top of the screen so you can go back to the category you were in before you chose subcategory. Is this internal wiki stuff when you use category tag? or is there wiki code for doing it? I'd like to see this implemented, but again, I know almost nothing of wiki-coding. This would be EXTREEMLY helpful in WAR Story so each chapter would only need next & previous links because the category links on top of page would be able to get them back easily. Also I could see it very handy with Achievments & Bestiary sections of Tome, really all of the sections.

So, it seems we need to nail down naming conventions. Also, would love to see input from WTarrasque because he's done so much with history & lore and the formatting before any solid decisions!Silenas-n-Jynnx 17:06, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Indent chaos, making my eyes cry; I'll have to read through this conversation more closely on Sunday or Monday (I'm out of town at the moment, on a public computer). But I did want to mention that Moccy and myself have been hammering away at a structure for the Beastiary, using an adapted form of what was established for History & Lore. Feel free to read through what we have, and jump in if you wish; I think we've almost settled on a structure, but there's always time for others to add to the topic if there's a need. The discussion can be found at Talk:Beastman, Gor. -- Heaven's Agent 19:46, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
As I see it for the bestiary, you've chosen to name the articles by simply their name and instead use the category system to structure them in tome consistency? Tell me if I got it all wrong. ∞ Sunspots {Talk | Contribs} 20:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
That's what we're leaning toward for the behind-the-scenes stuff, yes. We would utilize a similar structure in the actual articles. -- Heaven's Agent 01:35, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] So, what's the verdict on naming and structure?

I've been patiently waiting (something Im NOT good at)for more opinions so I can get going. Haven't seen many though. What should I do?Silenas-n-Jynnx 16:31, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd prefer having the title with both chapter name, army and number, I agree that this is something kinda annoying, I can barely decide for myself exactly how I would like it, but if we should keep it short, I would agree with only having [Chaos Chapter 1] although I don't know what we should name the warcamps (they don't have numbers), so if we don't care about the length (including it all also increases the ease of searching and finding), I would prefer [Chaos Chapter 1: Proving Ground] for chapter and [Warcamp: Blessed Gathering] (or [Chaos Warcamp: Blessed Gathering] for warcamps (this might get a bit long for such as [Chaos Chapter 22: The Burning of Castle Reiksguard], but it's still acceptable) ∞ Sunspots {Talk | Contribs} 20:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
My most recent opinion would be [Chaos Storyline/Chapter 1: Proving Ground]∞ Sunspots {Talk | Contribs} 18:26, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
If you put the information in then at worst it can be cut and pasted to a new page once the conventions are confirmed. That might mean a temporary redirect, but if the old name ever became relevant for something else the redirect could be removed, the search seems robust enough. And that is worst case afterall, with sensible naming it seems unlikely many would have to be changed. Was sorry to read the kerfuffle you had earlier Silenas-n-Jynnx, glad you've not given up just yet. Bilious 04:40, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
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